Sounds like you have a road ahead of you. No you did not create a monster, but sounds as if something in her past had come up and on her. Its not the Regumate, just her boss-mare syndrome. All I can say is she needs some authority in her life. If you have a round pen available you could probably get a lot acomplished. Otherwise, you are going to have to take it a step at a time. I would bring her home from the trainer, let her cool a week, then start work again at home. Ride her very defensively, not rough, don't let her get her way, she needs to learn you are boss and she is a follower. If she tries to rear of buck, just turn her head to one side or the other and make her move forward off of your leg. Keep her moving, circles, leg-yield, serpentines, anything to keep her on her feet. You don't have to trot or canter just keep her moving. It will take her time to figure out she is not alpha-mare, like you said it is a bad habit that needs broke. Best wishes, and good luck! There is light at the end of the tunnel!

Where are you? I know someone who could totally help you but we are in southern california.

I too have an opinionated mare. Hormones or not, it just sounds like she is getting away with things with everyone. You will have to just insist and send her forward. Can you long line? I've watched my trainer work with some horses that no one else can work with. She puts the horse on her long lines and just sends them forward. No discussion, just forward. They can back up, flip over, rear, buck... she just makes them go forward....

Do you have a round pen you can work in? For me, working within the confines of the round pen added security to me. I could then work on the "Yes Mame" and not worry about her going anywhere. That would be a good place to start for your sake. Even if it's just at the walk. Get on and walk in the round pen. And make everything your decision. To stop, turn, back up.. Just make her walk forward. Keep your sessions short but frequent. If she gets snotty with you, make her back up or turn in tight circles... both of which are more work for the horse. Then again send her forward

And as my trainer would tell me, "Be Gnarly Girl!"

And just so you know, I was to the point with mine that I couldn't even stand at a halt without her throwing her head around and stomping.... so I know what bad is.... You'll work through it and if you are anywhere near me let me know and I'll direct you to fantastic help.

I agree with the long lining idea. And round penning. But don't send her back to that trainer. If he were able to cope with her problem, she should have got noticeably better already. Some trainers are just no good. Or no good for certain types of horses. Try working her yourself in a roundpen. Just keep her moving. Think forwards all the time. Then move on to long lining. Always asking her to move forwards, forwards, forwards. If you can't handle it, trainers are good. But obviously not the one you have been using.

Thanks you all for the responses. My trainer has my mare and she is using the long lines on her. She does wonderful on the line. She moves forwards and uses herself very well. She is very responsive to the commands too! Now, when you get on her and ask her to trot, she says "MAKE ME!" She doesn't have back problems and the saddle fits great!!! (I just had it checked by the saddle maker) So...sigh
AT first we were going after her big time with leg aids and whip but she was getting uglier and uglier, so now, we are trying to get a much softer approach. She still will not respond to the aids but she will not get dangerous. Now it takes my trainer 5 minutes of leg and a bit of whip to get her going to the trot.

Am I making sense?

I had a gelding who was doing something similar... but not quite as bad as what you're desy cribing. With him, he would buck every time I asked him to go forward. What I did was use the whip on his shoulder-- if you have a horse that is going to buck and kick out at the whip, don't tap behind the saddle, tap in front where they can't kick back. I gave him leg first... if he didn't listen I'd give him a tap along with leg. If he bucked, I'd tap him again. I did this over and over and OVER ( it takes a ton of repetition) this way the horse is learning that if they do not move off of the leg, they will get punished. You have to keep with it and you have to be prepared to ride it out if the horse starts to throw a fit. He is now a completely different horse to ride... he'll still throw an occasional fit, but not NEAR as bad as it used to be. If your trainer isn't getting anywhere with her, I agree with Elizabeth... take her home! Your trainer could be great, but there isn't anyone who knows how to handle every situation. I hope this helps. When you feel her finally starting to move forward praise her tons... then bring her back down to the walk and ask for the trot again. You just have to be consistent... let her know you aren't going to stop... and the more she bucks and throws a fit, the more you're going to punish her.

I 4 sure agree with everyone bring her home!!!!I would also give her 1 week off just spend a lot of time with her bonding long happy brushing, nice walks ect I would love to know how she would then be on her first riding session (or long line - ride) it could be a wonderful experiment!!But you should bring her home asap. sound like the she isn't getting better and your bank acct. is the one suffering...keep us posted!

I have been exactly where you are. 8 years ago I took yet another race horse off the track and began training her. Just like yours, very alpha mare. she would rear and sort of hang out there, vertical and then decide to come down. ask her to take another step and up again. she has developed moves along the years that still just blow my mind.....but anyway. this is what made a difference. I first changed her out of her current bit to a loose ring sprenger kk ultra snaffle. it is a 3 piece that puts pressure on the tongue rather than hitting the pallat. that way I had better "feel" without her "feeling " it. then I got rid of the regumate. I switched to shots of depo. she did worlds better on it and I didn't have to worry about handleing it. but the most important lesson I learned is to keep her moving forward. I cannot stress that enough. just as sarah said use the whip in front of the saddle, and if you have a steady leg add a baby spur. use it when you need it to encourage her to move forward. at the walk she can rear she can buck and she can do what ever she pleases. the safest gate is the trot because it is the hardest to buck at where the canter is the easiest. keep her bent and moving on circles and zigzags, keep her mind busy and forever changing so she cannot anticipate what you are going to do next. keep her "thinking" about you and not her next move. I agree with everyone also, bring her home. where she is happy and familiar and the stress on you and her is the lowest. if your mare does well on the end of a lunge line then have someone stand in the middle of your circle and use a lunge whip to encourage her to go forward with out the line attached. and without hitting or snapping the whip. you have to be the alpha and she has to learn her place. also, the one thing I would look into is her feed. sometimes mares that lack in certain minerals or vitamins, especially after being on regumate can get nasty because they are lacking in something. or i have had horses on so much protien that they loose thier ever loving minds and get just wicked. the biggest thing I can tell you is to keep her moving forward. do not worry about transitions, or keeping her round and on the bit right now. she has to learn to go forward. go back to basics. ride as often as you can. if she gets worse with long sessions. break it down to 2 15 minute rides a day. the bottom line is you are having either a fear or a respect issue you can achieve respect by bonding with boundries. try to make everything a positive thing. if you get into a cycle of punishing her constantly it will backfire and get worse. If things do not get better, call me , a good friend and fellow rider helps people with what you are going through as well as breaks young horses. he broke 2 young ones for me as well as been my soul reason for keeping my mare today. I hope this helps.

i agree with every one else. But one more thing before you start working on forward and *work*. Remind her that riding can be fun and not always work. Get on her with a loose rein and let her walk around and do what she wants. If she wants to buck when you aren't asking her to then just sit it out. Let her figure out that riding doesn't mean work or pain or anything. Then after you can get on her and she can do *something* on a loose rein besides standing and bucking then you can start getting her more forward. When you are trying to get her going forward forget about everything but the forward. If she wants to gallop around with her head in the air, let her, as long as she is moving forward.

A horse i am riding now used to be afraid to work on the bit because it was hard and it sometimes hurt while he was developing muscles. He would rear and not want to go forward. After days like those we would just take him out for a gallop or go jump him or something so that he could remember that riding was fun too. So maybe your mare is telling you she doesn't want to do what you are asking and that you should switch it up. Maybe work on the forward stuff out on trails or something, not just the arena.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.
Alice, I tried to work on the forwards on trails too, forget it, same attitude! and I am sorry but the thought of seeing myself hanging from a tree on the trails is not very appeling LOL!
I also try to ride her with loose reins, not even trying to ask for contact... yeah, right!!!! not diffrence. She will not go forwards.
I already compromised to have my mare at least for 2 more weeks at my trainers, but then, I think I am going to follow your advice and bring her home and see what happens.

It is very discouraging when you have all these hopes and you have worked so hard and all of a sudden everything just falls apart. I know, I could be a lot worse, but I am having a pity party right now :-)

I am not the best rider and I get intimidated easy due to very bad past experiences. I do try my heart out and maybe that is what makes it so discouraging, you get over big challenges and then... puff... back to square one. I have to start all over again, not just with my mare but with myself as well.

Oh well, welcome to horse riding, correct? LOL

Welll.. I feel bad for you... once a horse gets to this level.. its alot of work to turn them around.. Trust me, I've done it for a couple of horses and I'm all set.... I should of charge way more.. But, I agree with trying a different trainer... Its not that your trainer is "bad" but maybe just not right for this problem.. or this horse... This behavior is extreme...
Since all physcial problems have been checked out.. its the mental issues now to deal with.. Sounds like this horse hates her job and is not respectful at all... she knows she's got people nervous when they are on her and does not want to work.. she'd rather fight.. BIG problem.. I changes EVERYTHING for the horses I worked with.. Tack, Bits, they came to my house... It was hard work...
The H/J became a trail horse..and had a donkey friend at all times for 1year...it helped alot..and no jumping or trotting circles ever for over 6m.. He's fine now.. but they only jump him a few times every few weeks and he is ridden in western tack and has trail rides every week..... the dressage horse , he was CRAZY and MEAN..became a pony for other horses,and again my trusty donkey.. I rode in a western saddle and was never ridden in the ring for 6m++ But before that I did ground work... and lots of time just walking with a buddy here and there... Both these horses had grown to just dislike being ridden, the people who owned them, and couldn't "take it" anymore.. but they did come around.. They where both geldings which I feel are always easier to deal with.. I won't own a mare.. Not to say that there aren't great mares out there.. I know some that are but 1000lbs+ of PMS.. No thank you.. lol...

So good luck... Hope you stay safe.. and things work out for you..

PS: She can "feel" the moment you or anyone.. becomes nervous around her and she likes it.. Take a deep breath and try not be be afraid of her..

PS: She is ONLY 7.. which means she is just becoming an adult now.. Whatever anyone else says.. between 4 and 8 there is usually a BIG difference in horses... My way of thinking is.. up to 4 they are "babies" and often easy to work with...from 4-7/8 they are the dreaded teenagers...and will retest the rules and break them...the worst time for most horses... BUT ...THEN after that horses become adults and life gets easier...So hopefully that will help you too....
Remember she knows the min you get nervous and she likes it.. so try to stay relaxed and not let her know she has you scared of her..
Good luck again..

mares like this are so tricky. You really have to spend more time making them think they like what you are doing then forcing them to.I have retrain lots of them it can't be done lots and lots of passion.I would maybe try some ulcer guard too .I had a horse a long time ago that would not move and it was because his stomach hurt we had to give zantac.Maybe that's why she did not get any better at the trainers.Or ????.
good luck

Just be confident!! If horses were easy, it would be boring right? ;) I know you're discouraged now, but once you finally get what you want, it's SO worth it!

I know this is pretty late, but hopefully it helps. She moves alright when lounge lined correct? Maybe what you could try is to lounge line her for a little while and get her moving nicely. Then take a five minute break and just praise her and love on her. Then throw her saddle on and lounge her again, and wait for her to respond and move nicely. Then take another break. Then add the bridle and repeat the process. If by this point she's still moving and doing great then either you or someone else get on her. Don't pick up the reigns or anything, just act like a sack of balanced potatoes. Then lounge her again with no cues from the person and try to get her moving smoothly one more time. Praise again. Then have the person hold the reigns, but still not use them. Praise again. Then have the person start using leg cues. Praise again. Then use a little reign if needed. Then If she does all of this well, stop for the day, give her lots of praise, and turn her out/ put her up. The idea is that you keep adding things on to see what might be causing her to have these issues. But if at any points she stops working for you and starts her marish tendencies, go back to the previous lesson and end out the days work on that good note. Because while the saddle may fit her right and she may not have any health issues, she may just not like one of these aspects and may have to be retrained too it. This is a steady way to figure out what it is that bugs her. If you find that she stops working for you with the saddle or bridle, you may want to think about changing one of those. The next day start this process all over again, but work longer on the lesson that she starts to act up on, hopefully with the end result being her submitting. Then once she gets that day's lesson stop, praise her, and put her up. And so on and so forth until you are able to ride her without the lounge line. Hopefully this helps.

I'm wondering why you're insisting on forcing your mare... Have you thought about lunging her and then just sitting on her? She'll get bored and start to walk off (this might take awhile) . After a few steps of not insisting she do anything, you praise her and get off. Make it an enjoyable experience. She's come to expect a fight. Don't give it to her. You have a timeline of what you want to accomplish in a specific amount of time. You're mare can sense this (Andalusians are one of the smartest horses I've ever worked with) and knows you have an agenda. Be patient and expect nothing while astride. One thing my mares taught me is that if they are fighting you, they are trying to tell you you're doing it wrong. Once I started riding w/o spurs and whip I had to analyze my aids. Domination became communication. When I truely started listening to my mare, we progressed thru the levels and I could actually ride (for fun as a test) an upper level test in a halter and bareback. Hope this helps give you another perspective to consider. You may also want to consider looking into GaWaNi Pony Boy or another natural horsemanship instructor that truely understands horse psychology.

I think you should have a breeding exam done on her. Sometimes ovarian cysts or tumors can cause pain and discomfort or she might have other "female" issues. I say that because she did get better on the regumate. How old was she when she was broke? Some mares never get past their own opinions about work if they are broke past about the age of five or six. Good luck

Mercedes do not give up! I have the most wonderful mare who went through this phase. She now is schooling piaffe passage and can even do a few one tempis. She was very successful at Training and First level, scoring 77% more than once and from different judges. However, she totally shut down when the work got more difficult.
Being a marey-mare, the harder I got after her with my driving aids, the more she fought with me about it. She never intimidated me a bit, but I felt really frustrated. She would kick out at my leg, run backwards, and horror of horrors, stick her tongue out the side. All of these behaviours are all gone!!!
For me the answer was to team up with a wonderful trainer in our area (Georgia) by the name of Roel Theunissen, he and I meet only once a week, but he is very experienced (as am I). He is very quiet, and great on the ground with the whip. I get to be the good cop, he is my enforcer! When Roel says to me "sit back", I know he is coming behind me with the whip! As you noted, your mare is good on the longe or double longe. She understands what that whip means and she gives you the correct response. But the transference between the meaning of the whip to the meaning of the leg has not been established. Mares do not like their precious sides squeezed, kicked, or whipped. We nice ladies hate to inflict any punishment on them. They in turn treat us as an annoying fly, and will tell us in no uncertain terms to leave them the hell alone! When it escalates into scary territory we comply. Ah, then they feel empowered and the behaviour is learned.
When I first was having trouble it did help to carry my dressage whip upside down and slice it loudly through the air, sometimes a bit behind her with one hand on the reins. She reacted much more positively, and in a forward direction, than any pressure on her sides.
I hope you'll persevere and break through. I was not about to give up on my lovely mare.
I am so glad that I did not
If you'd like to see her picture, go to my website. www.phfdressage.com

Wow! I hope you can get this alright!
You said that she never acted this way before, do you think something could have happened, and causing what's happening? Well.....When you catch her, try calming her down. You don't need to get her moving, just get her to trust you.
Also, remind her that riding can be fun, and not always work, work, work.....Just ride her with a loose rein, let her do whatever she wants don't urge her in to things.


I hope this helps!!!! Good luck!!!

Have you had the fit of your saddle checked? If the points are uncomfortable on her back, or the saddle rocks or bridges, then she won't be willing to use her back as she should, and will react as you describe. Also, are you putting it just behind her shoulder blade? Too far forward or back will also elicit a bad reaction.

One last thing to check si how the bit fits in her mouth. If you are using a single jointed snaffle, sometimes the joint hits a low palate horse in the roof of the mouth, causing them to react. Someimtes a double joint snaffle helps.

Stay safe


Beth Glass

Mercedes - I don't know where you are with your mare now as these posts date back to June last year.

I bred a mare just like yours- she was a beautiful talented Hanoverian mare - who after 2 years under saddle decided she just did not want to work. She was wonderful on the ground, lunged and long lined great - we tried everything. What worked? Jumping her!! She absolutely loved it - so I started by lunging her over a few jumps and then would ride her for just 10 or 20 mins, always stopping before she started stopping.

I sold her as a jumper to a young man she adores - and she has absolutely excelled in the jumping world. Some horses just do not like the arena flat work - it was really hard for me to make the decision to sell her as she was my baby and I had bred her, but we are both much happier for it!
So look for other alternatives for your horse - maybe she would like to be a hunter, jumper or driving horse. Just a thought.

Jennifer

Hello,
Interesting story! I hope your mare is doing much better now. Let me know okay!
Lunging is always a good way to excersice. Something else as riding and you can
watch them work!

Hi Mercedes,
I agree with Jennifer, my mare also doesn't like doing the same thing over and over. She is very intelligent and learns things very quickly. I wanted to show her in APHA shows but she got bored very quickly and was sometimes real witchy about working. But, she too loves to jump and throwing in lots of different stuff keeps her looking forward to the work. No more bad attitude from her now, and she doesn't even swish her tail at me much at all. We both have so much fun now.
Good luck. Don't give up. I didn't and now I have a wonderful riding partner, I love her.
Margie

I have the same problem with my morgan mare. Every time I ask her to trot she pins her ears back and if I persist she starts bucking. This is what I do. I work with her in the round pen to establish her position in the herd. I make sure I can move her away from me, and change direction, at the walk, trot and canter. I switched my bridle to an endurance ride and tie type bridle, and added a long 22' rope to the halter part of the bridle. When I'm riding her, if I ask for a trot and she starts her mess, I get off and lunge her immediately using the 22' rope, re-establishing her position in the herd. She is slowly figuring out that resisting causes her more work than if she obeys the first time without a fight. Seems to be working, but it's an uphill battle.

I'm a working student at cain lake stables up in n.w washington and we have a mare like this at are barn. Grace was nearly impossible she refuses to go forward she did the exsact same thing she would rear and pin her ears, just get pissed off from whips, and kicks. She's a mare she was on regumate a while back im sure she still is but i dont know for sure. Garyn my dressage trainer has had the hardest time with her, after years on this horse they finally have gotten to a better place. Showing now with 2 firsts under her belt! One thing she tried was lunging before the ride, it does take time but it give u control where your not in a place to be hurt. We would go extra forward on the lunge line and she had to go! That way when garyn got on shed be warmed up and in a forward mindset (although still not willing) she'd take a normal working trot and it would be a easier pace. Also using a jumping bat with whips on the shoulder worked better than the long dressage whip.. might be worth the tire. Don't give up she will come around. Hope i helped.

Have you had your mare checked by a chiropractor? We have an alpha mare at our barn with all the same issues and it turned out to be a bad back. When ourvet/chiropractor did the stomach lift the poor girl dropped her back instead of arching like a cat. They also did an internal exam which pointed to problems with her ovaries - which was also causing her pain.These tow things combined made her very unsafe to ride....now she is much better (most of the time)...you certainly know when she in PMSing but bi-monthly adjustments seem to help.

I had a mare like that too, and it wasn't so much her problem, it was mine. She could read me like a book and others around her. So I kicked her out for two years in my aunts herd where two other Alpha mares were. To make a long story short, she got the daylights knocked out of her. In the mean time, I went to another riding centre with another trainer and got on animals that were bomb proof to overcome my insecurities and just to get a good foundation under me again after being hospitalized after being thrown with severe head injuries. It took some good people to ubderstand that I knew how to ride, but I didn't know how to control that apprehention that came up and the horse felt it. I was able to buy an Andulusian gelding and got back to competing and winning again. I became stronger mentally and rode smarter. Three years later I went out to my Aunts pasture and caught the mare, she too had changed with the pecking order and no one to baby her. I worked her for three weeks in the round pen for a week and on the long lines after that. I then got her into a harness and starting hauling feed to cattle on a sled, hay bales, equipment. In other words, I worked her butt off so that she knew that I was in control again and she was not. After 6 months of being used as a work horse on the farm, I got on her back and started riding her. She is only ridden very experienced riders, but I got a great jumper and when I let my guard down, she reminds me that she still wants to challenge me, but the result will be more manual labor for her. It is not abusive, but it is her personality, she wants to be number one, but I ain't about to let her. It must be a genetic thing, because she has had 4 foals, and they all have that nasty Alpha personality, but they are a horse you want that doesn't back down from a challenge!

Get a new TRAINER! Try doing some western riding........trail...........anything that isn't dressage for a while. Find someone that will train the horse, then both og you together. Trade or find a horse to rebuild your confidence on. Try to ride every horse in the barn that you can. You are the Alpha Mare.....learn how. Ask your Vet about marbleing your mare, instead of hormones or see about spadeing her.
Check out some of the natural horseman trainers. John Lyons, Pat Parelli, Clinton Anderson, they all have some great exercises that you can do with your horse to establish the groundwork the rider/horse partnership needs.

Hey Mercedes I am a proffessional trainer and have observed the majority of answers were to use force show her whose boss etc. Go with your opposite responses which I will elaborate on also. I train onlydangerous problem horses and they all come with some degree of resentment. The LAST thing you want to do is alienate them more, by using punishment and force, like your mare. Yes, for whatever reason she hates her job right now and my guess is for starters she has been being viewed as an insensitive animal and treated as such and is most likely highly sensitive and is in a totally defensive mode right now. So if you can view her outragous combative behavior as defensive rather than aggressive that is the place you need to start to come from with her. I know that you feel right now she is your enemy and vice versa. You need to first get in the right mindset and remember when you two were friends and how much you loved and valued her. Back up and begin with spending time with her and bonding with her again, this will also build your confidence back up. This DOES not mean let her walk all over you. If you don't know anything really to do with her on the ground get some resources and do some leadline respect work with her, where she is respecting your space , but low level stuff where she can be successful. This is meant to re-establish the bond btween you two so you can start to trust each other again. ( Bring her home, did I say that, no one else should be inputting anything into her training at this point. ) Don't know what your position on treats is, but if you can hand feed her without problems have a large pocket full of treats and start to turn your training program from punishment, to reward. It sounds like things just got too weighted to tthe punishment side. I only punish for unacceptable dangerous behaviors, biting, kicking. I don't think this is her I think she is a pretty kind soul and her training program needs to start reflecting that. Reward her for things that you normally take for granted. This is not always or even usually a treat, but a kind verbal praise and a good rub or pat. She needs to start trusting you again. A majority of the horses I train manifest anxiety as aggression. You should be able to see a visible change in her attitude. You should almost be able to see her start to relax. The idea of the round pen is 1000 % right. That should be the next logical step to carry on the ground work, again low level. When I say that I mean don't go into territory where you will get into a war with her. Do challenging things but where you know they will not overwhelm her, she will be subservient to you and then you have the opportunity to reward, reward, reward. There is a major trust issue with the two of you. Set her up fpr success not failure. Then when you get back on her back same thing, and use opportunistic training. Don't be demanding of her when you start. Just sit on her back like the one person said . Ask her gently for two steps, and when she does it and she will if you are patient, reward her like it was a grand prix piaffe. Use these building blocks and your good judgement and when you see her start to resent back it up a step and let her be successful a little bit and then try again. If you are patient enough and that is the key, I guarantee you will be able to bring her back. You guys will be great friends again and she will want to please you. The resentment will fall away in layers. Good luck I think we all want to know how this comes out for you !!

Ok, so I saw this one a exfriend of mines horse. The horse did fine at home, and showed in the past, and she took her to their first show together and the horse did the same thing, not even letting anyone on her.

A few trainers just told her her horse was being stuborn, and eventually it got better. She just had to keep working with her. It would even take her longer to get her horse going, but the trainers kept on her horse, and it got better.